perfidy

"Didn't the Bible have something to say about pride? Why is pride so often associated with patriotism?"

The Prophecies are a riff on the same theme: that the Israelites should not be too proud because they are the "chosen people"--it is not sufficient reason fod G-d to protect them from bondage.

Ross, there's a lot to chew on here under the surface. My question to you is this: does someone have a right to inherited pride? That is, if your great grandfather builds a castle that sinks into the swamp only to build another one that falls down and then sinks into the swamp, and your grandfather builds a castle that burns over, falls down, then sinks into the swamp, but your father! Your father's castle stayed up!, do you have a right to be proud of your family's achievement?

I totally agree with you that complacent patriotism, complacent and unquestioning love of country is a crass and dangerous thing. But I'm not sure that being pround of, say, being a Red Sox fan, means that I'm looking down on all the Brewers fans out there. From what you've written I get the impression you are throwing out the baby with the bathwater and arguing that unless we re-fight the American revolution every thirty years or so, patriotism and national pride is somehow invalid.

There's a little to that. Citizenship should ideally involve sacrifice and introspection. But what sacrifice is 'just enough'?

Johno - You are spot on about introspection! Two weeks post 9-11 I returned to my Quaker alma mater for Meeting for Worship. I had a long talk with my old mentor, a convinced Quaker, and she was greatly perturbed by blind patriotism and flag waving overtaking our nation. She grew up watching the anti-war movement and had a hard time watching our nation bomb, maim, kill in the name of patriotism, after such a tragic event.

I think flag waving is great, but you hit the nail on the head when you say 'introspection.' Drunken idiots waving flags at NASCAR races, football games, etc. don't make me feel proud to live here. I do feel proud when thoughtful and deliberate patriotism is expressed, like actually removing your hat when the national anthem is played at a ballgame. (Such appalling manners that more people do not do this. Yes, I am a busybody that tells people to remove their hats!) There are a lot of good things about living here, and a lot of bad ones.

Pride is one of the Seven Deadlies. I would prefer humility over pride, for pride often turns to arrogance. But I just don't think there's much that humbles us as a nation and cultural mega-monolith. A tragic reality check like 9-11 shouldn't have to be, but there's a lot of arrogance, smugness in the White House that cannot be tolerated.

I think Ross takes pride too far into the realm of bigotry in his statement, "Taking pride in something you are is looking down on other people, who aren't." That's a false dichotomous choice. How about just being in the middle of the spectrum? Have pride in the single thing you are, without animosity towards the things you are not? At Quaker school, it's called 'Valuing Differences.' Not 'Belittling Others.'